Architectural Fees…part two

Bob Borson —  March 25, 2010 — 50 Comments

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This is the second installment of architectural fees, you can find the first installment where I talk about fees based on percentage of construction and the Myth of Price Gouging … click  here for more. Today we are talking about the specifics of fee structures and how important it is that everyone have “some skin in the game”.

Hourly Fees

I received some questions about hourly fees that I didn’t address the first time around so let’s revisit hourly fees  – it’s just like it sounds. There will be a hourly chart for different level positions and you are charged that rate for the time spent. My office has set up hourly rates something along these lines:

Principal – $175
Project Architect/ Associate Principal – $135
Project Manager- $95
Intern Architect II – $80
Intern Architect I/ Drafting 1 – $65
 

The only time we use this format is when the scope of the work is unknown but anticipated to not be very comprehensive but it doesn’t always work out that way. Most people don’t like being charged hourly for fear of getting a surprise when the bill comes but this manner generally benefits people who know what they want and make quick decisions. Even when the work is charged hourly, we try and reduce concerns for the client by capping the amount or identifying financial milestones that indicate progress along the way. The good part for me is that I am guaranteed to make my profit margin although my expertise is mitigated and I am precluded from working extremely efficiently, getting the work done in a fraction of the time and exceeding the built-in profit margin of my hourly rate.

Per-Square -Foot Fees

I find this method unreliable and unreasonable. There are too many moving parts to assign a per-square-foot fee value to designing and producing documents that could be used for bidding, permitting and construction. Since I mainly work on modern style projects, the amount of coordination I go through to detail a masonry building,\; sizing openings to align with the module of the selected masonry unit, water weeps, expansion joints, brick molds on windows, etc. versus the effort to work with a monolithic material like wood siding, or better yet, stucco. The amount of drawings required to properly coordinate one versus the other would not justify a single value cost. As a result, one of two things would most likely happen; since the fee would not be enough to compensate me for my time and overhead, either the quality of the drawings would diminish to reflect the fee, or I would be forced to work at a loss (which hopefully I would figure this out and either change my fees, cut corners, or go out of business). Everybody losses with this fee structure.

Combination Fee Structures

I have an old boss of mine that loves this particular structure. Basically it’s a combination of the hourly and the per-square foot. The schematic and design development portions of the project are hourly. This gives an incentive to the client to be available, make efficient, timely, and decisive decisions. It also protects the architect because regardless of the client, you know that your going to be compensated appropriately for your time. Some clients need to see iteration after iteration of possibilities, need a lot of counseling and reassurances, endless meeting, etc. and there’s no way to know beforehand.

When you move into construction documents, after having secured sign-offs on the designs along the way, the project has a more definable scope and a fee based per-square-foot cost can be used. Any changes to the design during the construction drawings phase needs to be identified as an additional service and the fee reverts to the hourly rate schedule.

Once you are out of construction documents, the fee goes back to an hourly rate during the construction administration portion of the project. This way, the architect can be as available as the client wishes during this time period for project meetings, site visits, installation coordination’s,etc.

For me personally, I have a problem with the combination fee structure method because it rewards the incompetent architect for doing a bad job, because there is a lack of accountability. Let’s say the client gives good instructions, a clear program and a appropriate budget. If the architect doesn’t listen and has to produce multiple designs to get to where the clients has asked, they get paid their hourly rate. Continuing along (and yet another reason this is a bad system) what happens if the architect prepares a poor set of construction drawings? They will be rewarded, again at their hourly rate, for the extra on-site coordination, preparing additional construction documents “requested” by the contractor, and for checking shop drawings for design work they didn’t resolve during the initial construction document  phase. This is one of those instances where the system works with a competent, ethical architect; but fails miserably when you get something or someone else. If you were the client, how would you know ahead of time which one you were working with?

Skin in the Game

I like tell clients that everyone needs to have skin in the game, that both architect and client are accountable to one another and while we both have something to gain, we both also have something to lose.

1. I am going to treat you fairly with my fees and you’re not going to waste my time.
2. I am going to make myself available to you and you’re going to make yourself available to me.
3. You will tell me your “real” budget and I will be accountable for designing a house that meets that budget.
4. If I design a house that comes in over your budget, I will revise the drawings at my cost.
5. If I tell you that you have changed the program and are at risk for exceeding your budget, and  you ignore this advice, you should expect to pay me to revise the drawings
6. If you tell most architects that your budget is $500,000, they will assume that this means your construction budget. Make sure that your budget includes monies for professional fees, landscaping and contingency
7. Make sure that you have a conversation in the beginning what scope your stated budget will cover.
 

When everybody has something at stake in the process, and this should not be a surprise, the dialog is markedly improved; clearer goals are identified as a by-product of this process.

If you have any particular questions, please feel free to email them to me: bob@lifeofanarchitect.com. There are many ways fees can be charged, we try and make them simple for our clients but occasionally we have to “revisit” some items along the way and they are almost always associated with one of the 6 items listed above.

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  • Tim Wong

    Hi Bob,

    Here’s part two: I guess an even bigger question from fees is: what’s the proper way to schedule fees if there is one?

    What I’ve been seeing so far is that architects would pile in so much time to impress a client first, then prepare a contract if clients like what they see. I was thinking probably fair enough because the client is also risking at this point in time.

    Problem there is what if they don’t like it and you had just spent countless hours studying the requirements and preparing the necessary plans and perspective for presentation? Who pays for that? Does an architect have to just risk those first few meeting in return for the big payoff?

    This curiosity arose when a graphic design friend saw my presentation (complete CAD plans and layouts) and asked: “Wait. You are already presenting something concrete that solves their problem without some sort of downpayment? Who’s to say if they just get your idea?” Though I still do my best to understand that on the part of the client, it is hard to shell out the hard earned money without seeing something concrete.

    Do you guys ask for some sort of kill fee for unused presentations? Or if there is an intial fee, then definitely this should be fixed because it would be very difficult to determine if this was based on percentage.

    Just to share, what we’re trying out now is charging for an initial consultation. A fixed fee comes when they ask us to generate a concept and a basic program shown as diagrams. If they like it, we then prepare a contract (pricing based on operational expense, cross-referenced to the prescribe percentage.) I do feel there is a need to improve this.

    Then we charge 50% to start Schematic Design, 50% upon completion, so on…until Construction Documents are done. Afterwards, we charge a monthly supervision fee until project completion. We provide a weekly report just to make sure that goals are met so the client doesn’t have the feeling that we are prolonging the work in order to get more out of it.

    This seems to work for the first client…because he’s my friend’s dad. Still have to try for others who are not withing my circle yet.

    I would appreciate any comments about this! thank you!

    Tim

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      this is really a question for others, my methodology of thinking is spelled out in the two posts that you reference. In the end, you have to figure out what works best for you and how you run your office and not worry about what others are doing.

      • Tim Wong

        Thanks for quick response!

  • Tim Wong

    Hi Bob,

    Wonderful article. I ran into this because I just started a practice of my own. And even though we have copies and references of contracts, I just had to ask you and the community. I’m from the Philippines by the way.

    I do like how the skin in the game concept sounds. So correct me if I’m wrong, referencing also part 1 of this series, this means it’s a completely different way of charging? It starts from the client’s budget. What if they are first timers, and have no idea how much their budget should be?

    I hope you don’t mind, but I do have a part two of my question as well.

    Thanks!

    Tim

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      Skin in the game is simply another way of saying that the owner is included in the process at a level that means we are all responsible for contributing to a successful project. It doesn’t specify any particular way what the owners are responsible, that’s up to you and the owner to figure out. It may be that they are available for meetings or that they are responsive for providing insight or answers to your questions.

  • New adVenture

    Need some help…
    I recently started a practice in Upstate New York (so not NYC), but that being said I have been writing proposals for years.
    A client that i worked with in the past ask me to look at a project for them and at this point it looks like a huge project in the neighborhood of 450k sf. I’m stuck on the fee, do I get what the firm needs to make it work or do we go for what the market will bear. Based on my experience for warehouse and manufacturing space (yes I said the M word) around 5-7% CC. On paper this fee looks absurd, I do as a rule feel we as a profession sell our self’s short but again it looks absurd and I don’t want to lose the opportunity.

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      I haven’t been asked to provide proposals on any warehouse space but my recollection is that a percentage fee isn’t typically used on these project types. I recently spoke with a firm in Memphis that does a lot of warehouse type space and they base their fees on what the office needs to order to perform and deliver the product.

  • 2 Bobs Worth

    Good site Bob. Here in Oz we are suffering terribly form fee gouging by non-architects (building designers/draftsmen) i recently was questioned on the value of my fees for construction documentation of a $20M apartment building (5 storey)- my quote $175,000 (> 1%)

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      ridiculous … this comment make make my face hurt. In the US, we have size and project type restrictions that require the use of an architect so we don’t examples as extreme as this (but we still have them to a certain extent)

    • Tim Wong

      I share the same sentiment. here in the Philippines Engineers are allowed to design houses limited to a few floors, and a few old Architects are driving their fees really low. We have lost a few potential clients (I would like to think it’s for the better) because of this one even questioned why we are asking for an initial fee when our “competition” gave them detailed plans already. for free.

      Government isn’t doing anything about this. Well, most locals know that they are then most notorious clients

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  • HollandArc

    I’ve recently had a multi-family home builder approach me about selling him my drawings for a small clubhouse/toilet room facility for a planned residential community amenity area that I produced a couple of years ago. Although I’ve never allowed this before, I’m tempted to do so now. What percentage of the original cost of producing the drawings do you think I should charge to let him have my cad files without title block, of course?

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      you and I talked about this on the phone … good luck

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  • Dan Jansenson

    Many, if not most of my residential clients are attorneys, and they tend to feel comfortable with hourly fees. Over the years my firm has settled on a hybrid billing method: a fixed fee for a defined scope of design work (say, three concept design iterations), with an hourly fee for additional work. Fixed fee for construction documentation, and hourly fee for permit-related and construction administration work. Seems to be accepted by most of my clients, especially since they understand that dealing with the city (in this case Los Angeles) can yield unexpected investments of time and effort.

  • Mark

    Are the 8-15% of construction cost fees you mentioned for architectural services only? Or do they also include consultants: structural, MEP (if necessary), surveying, geotech, landscape? I’m also assuming the 8-15% is from the beginning of a project through construction administration? Thanks for the article!

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      Those percentage fees are what we’ve heard from owners for architectural services only (this is a pricing model that isn’t applicable for most commercial work), and yes, this is full services, start to finish.

  • Robert

    Bob,

    I’m not sure where you practice architecture, however as a licensed architect for over 30 years, working in NYC on mostly Corporate Interiors, my billing rate is among the lowest of my piers. As a principal, we are charging $260/hr. PM’s $135-$145/hr and so on. If lawyers are getting upwards of $350/hr to unlimited dollars/hr, it makes no sense to give away our licensed, professional time for $175. I charged that in the 1980’s. Gensler principals charge $325/hr. HOK, $310/hr: HLW, $320/hr. Also, on a square foot basis, charging less than $3.50/RSF, will surely lead us to a loss by the end of the project. If a client wants his or her architect to produce the proper programming, fit studies, final design, design development, Construction Documents Construction Administration, the architect must receive the proper compensation or will soon lose his or her business. Remember, the money on any job is surely not in the architectural fees, but in the architecture itself. What we design and build. If our fee is $3.50/RSF for a $10,000sf project and the typical project runs about $80/sf without furniture, that would mean the fee would be $35,000 against a project cost without furniture of $800,000. The impact of $35,000 for the entity that creates and produces a space that will cost $800,000 to build and that people will live in for 10-15 years is nothing. At the end of the day Bob, an architect needs to be a businessman first and an architect second. Otherwise the talented professionals of our industry will soon be all gone. As it is now, most of my piers are moving to construction, real estate and owner’s representatives, for it is becoming impossible to make a decent living in this industry. In the future, think twice before you give away your fees.

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      Hi Robert,

      I don’t disagree with anything you are saying here. I practice in Dallas, TX and while I won’t say our hourly rates are lowest, they certainly aren’t the highest. We get a lot of feedback from the people we interview with and discover that there are firms out there that are charging $1.00/RSF and we can’t (won’t) compete with those folks.

      The firm I am in now generally tries to structure all of its proposals as hourly but since a bulk of our projects are residential, there is an uncertainty of the size of that potential fee that most clients are uncomfortable with – and I can’t necessarily blame them.

      I am not the low cost provider and feel that my skill set and end product warrants the fees I charge. Even though I wouldn’t turn down a higher salary for me and my employees, I have been able to strike a balance between my cost of living and doing a job I enjoy. I’m sure working in NYC would inflate the standards a bit.

      Thank you for sharing, I really appreciate it.

      • Bob

        Bob,

        Thank you for your response. Yes, even here in NYC, where rents are in excess of $60/sf and overhead is horrific, there are some horrible low-ballers that will take a $50,000sf corporate interior, full services, for as low as $1.50/sf, when the market average for a 50k/sf project is around $3.25-$3.50/rsf. They cut corners, send their preliminary schematics to India or China and pay $0.10 on a dollar for CD’s. The work is atrocious and the end of the day, the first change order that the client gets hit with, because of errors and omissions on the CD’s, amounts to far more than the net differential in fees. Here in NYC also, we have a growing number of culprits that are killing our fees and making it impossible to pay our bills; the incredible insurgence of the ever-present “Owner’s Rep”! They truly feel that the only purpose they have is to beat everyone involved with the project until they are under water. They don’t see the negative net result to the end user. I think they forget that as Architects, we have always done and still do what they do, but they can’t do what we do. Interesting! In any event, I will get off my soap box now and figure out a new strategy of making a living in this industry…..I hope.

        Best regards and good luck.

        Bob

  • Ed Rowley

    As an architect, I have based my fees on a per square foot basis combined with an hourly rate for design time, meetings and communication with the client and others on behalf of the client (all emails and phone calls for example), for many years. I don’t see why you say it won’t pay enough to do a good job. Just set the per square foot rate at the appropriate amount depending on the building type. I don’t use the percentage of construction cost because, like your chandelier example, I can draw a gold faucet in the same time I can draw a plastic one. Plus, cost based on whose numbers. No client has ever argued with me about x sq ft x x$/ sq ft = Fee $. It’s that simple. This works for every building type from hospital additions to industrial buildings to custom homes. I’ve been drawing buildings for a living for 43 years, and have been a licensed architect for the last 30 years.

  • Thomas Fairlie

    Hi bob,
    I know I’m really late, but I agree with your entire points about fees. I find proposing fees very difficult , especially because most architects are so secret about their fees and therefore the general client has no idea what to expect. Any insight to why they don’t like fees more transparent?
    Anyway, I saw your old post and was wondering if you could share more about fixed fees and why it seems you don’t use that method?
    (additional information on fixed fees and some additional considerations I have you think about.)
    Thx
    Thom

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      Most architects I know don’t really like fixed fees (for the entire project) simply because we are beholden to the client to make decisions on nebulous and ethereal things. I don’t know how many times you might change your mind during the course of design and fixing a fee is akin to selling a car by the pound. Once the work can be define and quantified, many architect will enter into ether a fixed fee contract or a phase within the scope that is fixed fee (i.e. construction drawings at a fixed fee but design at an hourly rate).

      Hope that helped.

  • Zqingd

    can you negotiate over the fees and architect is charging, eg. Structure Engineer, construction line drawing, etc…

    if so, what’s the best way to approach it.

  • http://rukhsanabadar.blogspot.in/ Rukhsana

    Hi Bob

    I cant believe how similar clients and architects are all over the world. I agreed with everything you say in this post though I practice half way across the world in India! I am sitting in my office thinking of ways to bill my clients whom I have already provided all the drawings…the fee topic is just so taboo. And they are all my friends now. And how much do I charge for a few A4 sheets of drawings though I spent a week struggling over them? Unbelievable.
    Have to keep following this blog!

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      Thanks – I hope that you do

  • Dman

    Hi Bob,

    I came across your website  Life of an Architect by google  keyword search: “Architecture fees”. The other day I sat with an architect who is a partner of a firm in Rochester, New York (upstate).

    I am planning an educational campus which consists of an elementary, high school, sports fields, etc and the hard cost where quoted as $65M. That seemed reasonable.

    The architect indicated that soft costs (firm fees) would be $19M. I am shocked on this number (29%)?!

    Can you shed some light on coming with a reasonable fee for the architect?
    Your article indicated 8% – 15% of construction costs (which in this case the hard costs of $65M).

    There are other options.. I can hire a whole team from India or Philippines for $100K!
    I would like your take on this?

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      I sent a response back directly to your email address – your comment is better served privately than in this public forum.

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  • TAP

    How much information do you show on your invoices?  What is acceptable and customary?  My client wants me to line-item my hours, or better yet, copy them my detailed time sheet.  I don’t think this is appropriate but I am having trouble putting my finger on why.  I summarize my hours on my invoices for my time spent for diffiernt tasks, such as SD, meetings (with client), 3D modeling, etc. 

    p.s.  this blog rocks!

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      TAP,

      Thanks for the ps comment!

      We just show what is due based on:
      percentage of fee against work completed
      reimbursable expenses – which includes the individual consultants, plotting, etc. 
      past due amount (if any)

      I could imagine that if you were charging hourly they might want to see what work was done and by whom (re:billing rate) but even then we generally don’t indicate tasks and time spent per task. If requested, we would tell people the hours per person and the area of work but unless a highly detailed summarized bill is requested when the contract is created, we don’t take the additional overhead time to document at the level you identified. More times than not, we don’t actually charge for all the time we spent, just what seems appropriate for the work completed or the progress made.

      Hope that helps

  • Anonymous

    I use the combination fee structure most often myself. Not only does it give my clients a comfort level with me but me with them. With new clients I almost invariably propose an hourly-not-to-exceed up through design development and then usually (not always) a fixed fee for construction documents that usually (not always) includes limited construction administration.Not only does it keep expectations in line on both sides, it gives both sides the opportunity to walk away after the original stated work is done and paid for. I have yet to have to jettison a willing client as I usually have a feel for the success of the relationship from the outset. I did have one that chose not to go forward with the project after paying me for schematic design only. I couldn’t have been happier. I would probably have gone forward had the client wanted to but was just as happy to be done at that point as I figured out it was more hassle than it was worth.

    With my regular clients it’s easy to establish a fixed fee from the beginning based on prior work and how the new project differs. Luckily, my best client (a developer) pays 50% up front and the balance at delivery of permit drawings (electronic transfer). They are not large projects but now we have a great system for delivery and he already has a rough idea of our cost before even picking up the phone since most of his projects are quite similar.

    As far as skin in the game goes, by giving “free” initial consultations I establish a level of trust that when I ask for a sizable retainer there is almost never any protest. Lately, however, we are being asked to put a lot more skin in the game by developers asking us to defer our fees altogether until the project is sold. We weigh these requests on an individual basis based on risk and reward and have been very up front about that. If you want to use us as a bank then we need greater compensation at the end. Honestly, though, it’s almost never seems worth it. We do not rule out “if come” work and larger firms I have worked for did it quite often almost always ending up on the good end of the deal. However, with our margins and the track record (or lack thereof) of those making the requests it just seems foolish. It is something I am curious as to how other smaller firms handle. We just insisted on a 30% retainer on such a request and would be willing to defer the back end. However, I think this developer (with all the best intentions) is trying to do this one with none of his own skin in the game. I am not willing to assume his financial risk. The question, however, is if work is slow enough should that risk be taken because there is at least some chance of reward or is it more important to establish a firm policy of not doing work you have little hope of getting paid for?

    • Anonymous

      Dustin,

      Thanks for the concise and well thought out comment. Work from developers does not represent a very large percentage of our work and as a result, when we do ask for retainers, it is normally for 10% of the estimate scope and we only ask new clients (not repeat clients) to submit a retainer. I usually recommend when ask that the retainer be held on to and applied towards the final bill – after all, it is retainage against the entire project or scope of work.

      The concept of everyone having skin in the game is important to me, despite the current workload. We maintain our service level and stress that the level of service we provide is consistent with what we are charging. I have seen it happen too often that two clients get together and if you have negotiated different fee structures for the same service, you will have an unhappy former client.

      When times are tough and fees are difficult to come by, we reduce costs by eliminating services – or rather, eliminating the all in price structure and creating more of a menu of services the client can choose from. This way, the client doesn’t feel like they are paying for things they don’t need and we aren’t charging them for those services they feel they don’t need. As the circumstances change, the option to add back an eliminated scope of service always remains.

  • Linedanc2

    Hourly bills can definitely cause a surprise as you note, make sure that you always have a contract with your architect that lays out exactly what work he/she will do and how many hours it will take, no matter how small the amount of time they will be spending on your project. Architect we were working with gave us valuable advice on where to locate a new half bath. We were thrilled to have his advice and to pay him for the time he spent with us. However after our meeting he did a hand drawing of the half bath (less accurate than the Visio we did ourselves) that he tells us took only a few minutes, and created a less than one page list in a Word document of possible fixtures/materials etc for the bathroom. Every single fixture/material we had either already researched ourselves, or did not like (he had not asked us about our likes/dislikes). The creation of this less than one page Word document apparently took him well over 2 hours. We are now forced to pay him over $200 dollars for a useless document. Please learn from our mistake.

  • http://www.buildingsource.net Karen A. Davis

    Valuable information, Bob. Thank you for sharing it. I just recently attended a meeting with a group of architects, and when the conversations turned to fees, most thought it shouldn't be discussed openly. I don't get it! Other professions don't seem to have a problem sharing how they charge – with their cleints or among their colleagues.

  • http://mowerymarsh.blogspot.com/ Jennifer Marsh

    Thanks for taking the time to respond. It’s helpful to hear how others approach it. I think it’s part of the problem with how the profession is perceived… with so many variations it’s hard for clients to compare architects and the service they are getting. Thanks again!

    speaking of perception of architects… have you heard of the CORA position paper that’s been talked about on the RA forums?

  • http://mowerymarsh.blogspot.com/ Jennifer Marsh

    Thanks for taking the time to respond. It’s helpful to hear how others approach it. I think it’s part of the problem with how the profession is perceived… with so many variations it’s hard for clients to compare architects and the service they are getting. Thanks again!

    speaking of perception of architects… have you heard of the CORA position paper that’s been talked about on the RA forums?

  • http://mowerymarsh.blogspot.com/ Jennifer Marsh

    Hi Bob,

    I know this comment is late…but thanks for getting this 2nd part on your blog!

    I came back to it just today because I’m working on a propoal that’s giving me trouble. They are looking for a fee structure that I’m not usually comfortable with… a set fee.

    After reading this again, I don’t have a sense of what method you prefer…maybe I missed it. I see what you like and don’t like about each but not what you have found to work in your practice. Do you mind sharing?

    JM

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob Borson

      Jennifer,
      I just sent you a direct email response with some additional information on fixed fees and some additional considerations I have you think about.

      Thanks,
      Bob

  • http://mowerymarsh.blogspot.com/ Jennifer Marsh

    Hi Bob,

    I know this comment is late…but thanks for getting this 2nd part on your blog!

    I came back to it just today because I’m working on a propoal that’s giving me trouble. They are looking for a fee structure that I’m not usually comfortable with… a set fee.

    After reading this again, I don’t have a sense of what method you prefer…maybe I missed it. I see what you like and don’t like about each but not what you have found to work in your practice. Do you mind sharing?

    JM

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com/ Bob Borson

      Jennifer,
      I just sent you a direct email response with some additional information on fixed fees and some additional considerations I have you think about.

      Thanks,
      Bob

  • Laurie Burke

    I wonder why I type faster than I spell check? I meant to say: Brilliantly stated, “skin in the game.”

    This past month I spent more time chasing down my design fee for a designer who promised to pay me for my drafting services upon completion, I should charge her interest for making me wait to get paid. It’s been over a month, my skin was in the game on her behalf. No more concessions based on promises of payment at the end. For now on my method is, NO TIKI? NO Laundry!

  • Guest

    I wonder why I type faster than I spell check? I meant to say: Brilliantly stated, “skin in the game.”

    This past month I spent more time chasing down my design fee for a designer who promised to pay me for my drafting services upon completion, I should charge her interest for making me wait to get paid. It’s been over a month, my skin was in the game on her behalf. No more concessions based on promises of payment at the end. For now on my method is, NO TIKI? NO Laundry!

  • Laurie Burke

    Brilliantly stated, skin the in the game. Reticent players force the game into overtime.

  • http://www.cabinetrydesignresources.com/ Laurie Burke

    Brilliantly stated, skin the in the game. Reticent players force the game into overtime.

  • http://www.kitchenandresidentialdesign.com Paul Anater

    I love your Skin in the Game list Bob, it’s similar to what I go through with my clients.

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com Bob

      Paul,
      I got that phrase from my sister Barbara and she’s knows what she’s talking about. If you’re interested, Google her: Babara Hulit, President Fluke. She’s pretty amazing.

  • http://www.kitchenandresidentialdesign.com/ Paul Anater

    I love your Skin in the Game list Bob, it’s similar to what I go through with my clients.

    • http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com/ Bob

      Paul,
      I got that phrase from my sister Barbara and she’s knows what she’s talking about. If you’re interested, Google her: Babara Hulit, President Fluke. She’s pretty amazing.