What's even more exciting is the interior designer who took a 2 hour code seminar and is now an expert on Life Safety issues and wants to argue to the client about paths of egress and how the architect is wrong because they just took a class.

The values and services each provide are going to vary wildly from each person's experience. I think part of the reason so many people have asked me to weigh in on this debate is because I have worked for a prolonged period in both fields and under the direct supervision of both architects and interior designers.

The firm I worked for did fantastic work and I am very grateful for the time I spent working there. It gave me an insight into things that my education and previous work experience didn't provide. I gained an appreciation for the specific skills interior designers have. As a caveat, I am only talking about interior designers that I respect because talking about really bad ones isn't worthwhile – both sides can bury the other with examples of bad work so I am trying to stick with the perceptions of the skill set interior designers have and not the actual skill set.

We didn't do any of the type of work that Madame Sunday described – since we primarily did hotel work (including restaurant, bars, lobby, meeting rooms, etc. we essentially received a shell building set of drawings and we worked within the existing framework of what had already been designed. We did locate walls but it was only within the framework of the previously established structural layout.

I will also acknowledge that I don't know too many architects that space plan furniture into their designs – quick – how large is a sofa! A queen size bed! A California King! I could guess the people who knew the answers to those questions. Where I work now I have brought that type of knowledge and skill set to the work I do now and we DO consider furniture placement in our designs when laying out spaces, but I think that is atypical for other firms or at the very least, only typical for firms like mine that specialize in providing a high level of service (and not $300 house plans).

I'm right there with modernsauce. I have a BFA in Commercial Interior Design, not residential and many people (including some architects) do not understand or respect the massive difference in the body of knowledge required. This post could almost be followed up with: Interior Designers vs. Decorators. Toss in a few more throw pillows.

While I understand the final product of what an interior designer does is summed up with putting a pretty bow on the space, I am personally much more fascinated with the technical side of it all (which I am aware is not the case for all Interior Designers). What about way-finding, signage, fire codes, building codes, ADA accessibility, and the overall basis of evidence-based design? While we may not have the final 'say' for all of this, we must have an understanding, and hopefully have been properly educated in each of these subjects.

It remains is a sore spot for many designers who have this entire body of knowledge beyond color schemes and furniture typicals, and would like to claim that name as our own so that we aren't confused with being just 'decorators.' It is a fight that will continue, and I think is worth doing, so these different educations and skill sets can't be so easily confused. And hopefully in the future and we can all move beyond this need to clarify and work as a team with the separate knowledge we bring to the table.

Just because an Interior Designer took a class, let's use Rodger's example of a 2 hour code seminar, doesn't mean they are an expert, per say. Yet, we are all here to learn and work together, and while 'arguing' the paths of egress is not the way to go about it, a conversation discussing this is beneficial to both architect and designer for both different perspective and understanding as well as learning which is possible for both parties. What I would hate to see the most is an architect who feels he cannot learn from a designer. It may not always be the case, but the learning can go both ways, as it should.

With a four year degree under my belt (but still a new graduate to this world) I would be offended if an architect didn't respect my thoughts and opinions on egress, or my willingness to discuss and learn from each other. That was a major phase of our project development and was drilled into us from the very first studio.

I don't know if this whole topic speaks of the varying levels of education out there, or just the common misunderstanding that exists. I went through a CIDA accredited Bachelor's program, whose Master's program was #1 in the country. Our undergrad classes were taught by the same professors.

Thoughts?

There was tension at my school between architects and interior designers as well, and it's really unfortunate. Some designers want more responsibility. We understand the liabilities that come along with creating a space for the 'health, safety, and welfare of the public.' I can't tell you how many times this phrase came up based on examples of student work.

Now this is all not to say I don't respect decorators, but I do not consider myself one, and that would highly downplay my knowledge and skill when it comes to design. To me, decorating happens last. The space is created first. That is the interior designer's job.

I had a visceral reaction to this post, which makes sense once you understand the prejudice I have been exposed to for the last 5 or so years. The school I recently (very recently!) graduated from has an Interiors program in the school of Architecture. There are several professors there that are determined to convince the world that Interior Design is a waste of time and that Architects can do all the interior designing that is needed. I think this seems to be a fairly common opinion among architects perhaps because they have worked with Interior Designers that were not as skilled as they could be. But it's frustrating to constantly hear that something you are passionate about is a worthless talent or to even have it referred to as “pillow picking”! Gasp! The horror! Considering the school that I attended focused more on building code than color theory I am actually envious of the designers that can pull together colors and patterns with flair. Yes, I used the word flair. I can't help it, Interior Design.

I watched this past semester as a really talented candidate for an Interior Design Professor position, someone that had years of experience teaching and working in the field and that had been published countless times for her work, was picked apart by the architecture faculty in her presentation. They referred to her work as “decorating”. She handled the criticism with a great deal of poise and while I know her skills and knowledge would really help the Interiors program I am sure she won't be chosen. The other candidates were all architects, with degrees in architecture and experience in architecture. Not Interiors. The candidate I was referring to, in defense of interiors, said that architecture is the macro and interiors is the micro and to have a space, home, office, whatever you choose that works these two have to harmonize. I was really impressed with her words and it reinforced my decision to pursue Interiors instead of Architecture as I originally had planned. Because an empty building with nothing inside is as useful as a pile of chairs with no shelter.

I am getting off my soapbox now and putting it away, haha! You might be able to tell that this is a sore subject with me! Great thought provoking post, Bob!

In my 25 years of experience, including professional architectural practice, teaching, owner representation, and extensive lobbying at the state level, i think Bob's summary is SPOT ON. When every PROFESSIONAL working on a team knows their personal strengths – as well as their legal boundaries – then the team is better than the sum of the parts. I make it a point to ask my engineers questions about their design but do so in a way that leads to better understanding (better DESIGN) rather than mistrust. “Could we route this duct over here to increase the ceiling height in the lobby?” “Could we move this electrical panel to the other side of the corridor so that future flexibilty was retained?” And they ask questions back. “Could this open office suite be flipped to move the coffee area out from over the occupied tenant space below?” “Could we drop the ceiling over the toilets to allow the supply plenum to transition past this deeper beam line?”

Why shouldn't a professional Interior designer be allowed to participate in a similar manner? “If we put a bulkhead along here the ceiling plane could extend clear through the building without interuption.” “Could we extend this partition across the space with big punched openeings to dramatize the change in use of the spaces?” “The dead-end corridor in this scheme looks a little deep; if we rotated the file/copy area we could get an egress door to the corridor. Do you think that would work?”

I have worked with VERY talented Interior Designers who I would put on my team any day of the week. And I have worked with licensed architects who couldn't assess the proposed occupancy classification OR the probable construction type of the existing building.

Last but not least: the finish/furniture procurement thing is so incredibly unethical. It establishes an agency relationship that the client misunderstands (the designer is an agent of the manufacturer, not the client). I pay you to be a CONSULTANT; if you are working for somebody else you are a VENDOR. Our contract relationship is completely different. [I have equally strong feelings about travel, real estate, and insurance AGENTS. You have to know who they are an agent of to understand their motivations and actions.]

I agree completely. There IS an overlap of knowledge, and there is nothing wrong with that. Yet, instead of creating conflict, this combined knowledge should simply be utilized to create better solutions.

I know where Erica went, she may not what to drag her new alma mater into this. I can say it was a school in the Dallas metroplex that has a strong design reputation but I can't say anything good or bad about the technical abilities of the folks who come out of the architecture program. Every person I know who has graduated from this school thinks of themselves as a hardcore full throttle designer (deserved or not).

Wow, Bob, what a brave post. In the commercial arena I experience your same gripes but get along with everyone by keeping them to myself. One thing to add fuel to the fire: a friend of mine who is an interior designer did admit that an architect “could” do an interior designer's job, and the relationship was not reciprocal.

What bothers me the most is when clients thinks that the only think architects do is the structure and that we are incapable of selecting colors, finishes, lighting and that is what a “designer” does. They say to me: “You're not a designer, you're an architect”…..WHAT DO THEY THINK A DESIGNER IS ANYWAY?
I also see a lot of value in interior designer's input, but sometimes the budget only allows for certain consultants, and architects have excellent taste….nuff said.

a few years back, I took a job teaching in the local CIDA accredited interior design program. at the next AIA meeting I attended, some of the (older) architects accused me of going over to the “other side” …

especially in a tough market, it's hard not to view it in that black-and-white way, in the fear that someone else, some whole group of someone elses, are trying to wedge themselves into the small slot of our livelihoods. but we have to be smart, even so. yes, we can take on projects that don't fit our strengths, but does that really pay off in the end except in bare survival?

I can do many of the things interior designers do … many of them at a similar level of competency, some at a higher level, some much lower. I'm great at spatial design, at form and function, but you don't want me picking your fabrics and pillows, or placing your accessories. We each must learn, despite the letters behind our names, to respect which skills each of us hold best, and to build teams that fit our clients needs. Architecture, environmental design, whatever you want to call it–it's a team sport.

Hi Lisa, thanks for commenting. I think it's fair to say that there are interior designers that have better mastery of similar skills as architects and the same holds true for architects. The thing that I think makes this discussion most interesting is that everyone has what they think is a unique experience or position when it kinda sounds like everyone is saying the same thing – respect the skill.
It doesn't matter what your training is or the focus of your background. It seems most people who have negative opinions have had a bad experience and had their “scope” toes stepped on. Being protective of your responsibility isn't unique to architects and interior designers, I deal with it almost daily when contractors suggest revisions to the owner. Depending on how it is handled, a typical emotional response is generally along the lines of you do your job and I'll do mine. The overlap and people who are under-qualified seem to be the issue.

Wow Marcy – stirring the pot up a little? Ha!
We run into this every now and then – that people think we aren't capable of selecting finishes but it's more about their lack on knowledge than seeing our work and deciding that we aren't capable. That is a simple conversation (that and a portfolio of projects to show them).

David,
Very well said (written). It's respectful but recognizes boundaries. You have even managed to draw a line in the sand that I think is very reasonable re: vendor vs. consultant. A+

I'll chime in and say the two are very different. And I'll also say that commercial ID's are not paid like decorators. And then there's the whole licensing deal, which decorators do not have do deal with. I briefly dated an interior designer who would EXPLODE if you called her a decorator.

And that is more a code of ethics issue, and should be treated that way instead of lumped under the label of an entire profession.

i'm not making this up, really, this really occured yesterday…..I'm still a bit traumatized so I may need a day or so to compose my thoughts. I'm an architect with over 15 years experince and yesterday a friend of mine an Interior Designer with over 25 years experience, asked if I would help her coordinate a home with her and her sister who is a decorator. You see where this is going- an architect, interior designer, and a decorator…….I'm not sure I should elaborate but I may have an in depth post in a few days. Yes, we're still friends.

Oh bummer, am I too late to weigh in? What a great conversation, and I do think that we can all get along. We all have different skill sets and should be willing to acknowledge our differences, work together holistically as design teams with common goals, and just get over the rest of the bullshit.

However, I admit that I do bristle when called a decorator, (and it happens all the time) because it sounds so superficial, and I'm educated and experienced enough to provide so much more than the title of “decorator” conveys. Decorating is fun, it's a key component to the finished product, it's the icing on the cake, but it's not the cake. Of course, you can spend your life happily and profitably icing cakes if that floats your boat, but call it what it is. That's all. I'm sure if you referred to a master pastry chef as a cake decorator, he or she would be pretty pissed off.

We as professionals have to stop bickering and start eduacting our clients and the world at large about what are the distinctions, where are the overlaps, and how we can provide quality worthwhile services to those who choose to hire us.

By the way, Bob, regarding the purchasing agent issue. It's not true anymore that showrooms give designers deep discounts. Especially with the rise of the internet and the general public's ability to buy just about anything they want on their own, the days of trade-only pricing that was actually like a wholesale price are gone. Totally gone. Designers have very little leverage with showrooms now, and just deciding to un-select a piece of furniture or softgood (that you perhaps based your whole scheme on!) out of spite towards a vendor is not easy, and also really uncool. It's becoming difficult to purchase for a client and actually be able to get a better price for them than they can get themselves, but purchasing, as you stated in your play by play above is quite involved. So it's an added service for the client to let their designer handle the details and headaches of purchasing. And design fees and purchasing fees are separate animals. It's only a kickback if you don't disclose to your client how you're being compensated. Ethical designers (& the ASID code of ethics is actually quite clear about this) disclose in their contract that when you purchase something through the designer, you're paying the best net price they could get plus a percentage markup, or a percentage off retail, or whatever, but it is stipulated in the contract and agreed to by all parties. Whatever the client decides to buy on their own, well, they're on their own!

I don't have anything against architects. I like architects. I know I can learn lots of stuff from architects, and I can show them a few things too. I think it's a symbiotic relationship that can benefit the client. I also feel projects would have better results if interior designers were brought into the design process earlier, instead of as an afterthought later on.

I don't like snobbery no matter what the industry, and unfortunately, many interior designers (and architects, too) have mastered the “just-smelled-a-turd” thing. I have very little respect for those types of people, period.

Wow, very interesting post, and thank you for re-posting it! I’m on the architecture side, and have worked in offices where my boss had little regard for the ID, and in offices where it was integrated, and I’ve also fully collaborated with ID and done ID myself because I LOVE IT! there I said it. The one cannot live without the other. Good furniture, art, objects, wall color, finishes, lughts, hardware etc will make or brake a project; and conversely all those items do not exist in a vacuum (I feel the same way about landscape architecture btw). Many a times we in the Arkie profession forget that rooms are meant to be lived in, worked in, used, and design based solely on form forgetting the function (or perhaps the function we have in mind is a structural or an engineering/system one). So then we get upset when an interior designer tries to install some “rogue couch” and disrupt the balance of our meaningful vast expanses of emptiness. There is also the concept that picking tile is somehow beneath our profession, and we’d rather draw the details for the cementitious board on which the tile will be placed than pick said tile; but why should allow someone else to make those aesthetic choices and determine the final look of our brainchildren? Our professions have become so compartmentalized that in some big offices (I had this experience too) the architects produce only the shell, and everything from the interior sheathing in (millwork, plumbing fixtures, tile, finishes, not just furnishings) is the realm of the ID, “interior architecture” if you will. We need all need each to produce good work, it’s not just a matter of “respecting” the profession, but understanding the two professions, and let’s not forget that some of the best architects are the ones who practiced more than one art: Michelangelo( do i have to explain?) Bernini (sculpture, painting & saint peters!?) Robert Adam (interior designer extraordinaire) Frank Loyd Wright (furniture & stained glass anyone?), etc. Oh and designer is someone with a degree and I believe a license; a decorator is your sweet aunt who likes to pick fabrics at Jo-Anne. One last thing, the ID is your clients best friend, he/she should be yours too.

Hi Roberta,

Thanks for taking the time to enter in such a worthy and considered response. I am a big fan of most “experts” and readily accept their input on my projects because it’s pretty simple … we all have the same goal.

Cheers,
Bob

Hi Roberta,

Thanks for taking the time to enter in such a worthy and considered response. I am a big fan of most “experts” and readily accept their input on my projects because it’s pretty simple … we all have the same goal.

Cheers,
Bob

well done – thanks for adding to the conversation!

Awesome post.. I’m yet to experience the dilemma when I a current interior designer is soon to graduate as an architect…
While working as an interior designer, I faced the similar issues with architects… But now as an architect… I see how the issues develop… – in the initial stages of design, interior designers are not involved… And this seems to create all the major issues later on..